SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome! You are listening to the CRM Success Show, where you will hear from CRM executives who have overseen some of the most interesting and complex CRM implementations. Your hosts, David Mossri and Kira Whitey, will be bringing you real stories, real insight. Follow along on social media for updates on new episode releases, exclusive content, and much more. Enjoy the show and thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

Welcome to the CRM Success Show where we deep dive into CRM success and failure, delivering real stories with real impact. I'm Dave Mastery.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

And I'm Kira Witsi.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

And today we're talking with Chris New Decker, the Senior Director of Engineering at BHG Financial. Welcome, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Thank you, gentlemen. Glad to be a part of this today.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Yeah, thanks for joining us, Chris. We want to start you off real simple today. Please give our listeners a quick overview of your experience in the Salesforce ecosystem and a little bit about BHG for us.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Happy to. About myself, I'm I am Chris New Decker. I've been working in Salesforce for almost 15 years now, 2010s when I first got in, and it was just about pure dumb luck. I don't know why. And it's been a great transition for at least from the last 15 years of just starting off as an admin and trying to understand how things work inside Salesforce, just seeing it evolve over the years, especially from a development standpoint, from an admin standpoint, a business analyst standpoint, architecture standpoint, and so forth. So it's it's got exciting aspects to it. And the things you can build are just unbelievable. So that that's been a ton of fun. Worked for a number of great companies, some as contractors, some as full-time as well. And currently right now in an engineering state, I oversee engineering teams from the aspect for a lending company called BHG, which has an amazing story to it. It's a a small privately owned company that a friend and two brothers started in 2001, which was right before 9-11. Um, and they had an idea and a vision and a dream to be able to provide lending to healthcare owners, people who might be a doctor that has a business or a dentist or who owns a business and so forth, and watch them grow and succeed as well, too, though. And of course, as they provide that lending, they also sell these loans out. So we have a market of we were lending to and the market we were selling to as well, too. So as this business has continued to grow extremely, last year we did over four billion in lending alone, just for a small group, a thousand employees. So great story. Uh highly motivated owners uh with their family members who all helped drive this company and we continue to see it grow. Look forward to it.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

That's awesome. And and I think one thing that really intrigued me about your background in the Salesforce ecosystem to date, um, you you've really got a nice variety of end users, consulting firms, ISVs, you've worked with onshore, nearshore, offshore resources. Um, you've done financial services, insurance, healthcare, education, um, you know, so you've really seen a lot during your time in the space. Um what what what do you think's been probably one of the alongside the variety, what do you think has been one of the benefits that kind of trajectory of your career has has provided you when you go into a new organization?

SPEAKER_01 3:23

That's a great question. See, just being able to be exposed to all these other industries gives you an insight to something. It doesn't always mean it's applicable to the next place you go, but at least it gives you insight to things that might work and the things that you can test and try as well. Um I I've been very fortunate. I really have. Part of it has just been a necessity where I've able to go and work in these other industries because they needed somebody at the time that might be able to help them bridge their ideas. And I just, you know, God let me go ahead and be a part of that. And I'm I'm thankful for that as well. But at the same time, you sometimes can get jaundiced as well, too, right? Because you get stuck in your ways because it worked here. I don't want to try something new here. If it doesn't work, look like a failure at the same point in time. So so it does have those unique balances, but but being a part of all these different industries has definitely helped me see things and be a part of stuff I could only have imagined otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

So yeah, that's great. So so, all in all, about 15 years within the Salesforce ecosystem, correct?

SPEAKER_01 4:21

That's correct, sir.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Awesome. Um I'll ask you a uh a question. Uh if you feel like taking uh a pass, you can. But um out of out of all the roles that you've had, which has been your favorite so far?

SPEAKER_01 4:34

I think this one's probably my favorite now. I mean, they're all they're all unique and different, right? And so each one has gotten better by the years. I just have a really good team with really good people at this company, and so I'm very fortunate to be a part of that. Um, I manage, but I don't really consider myself a manager or a leader. I mean, I I feel like myself as a team member and I treat everybody because we're all equal to a degree, just like you would your kids. They're all the same, you love them all all the same, and you just want to see them grow. So my job is just to help them grow and help the company achieve their goals. And that's really kind of how I treat things. But this group is great. They really are. I'm very fortunate. So this right here is my favorite.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Fantastic. So tell us a little bit more about um the team that you kind of inherited, the the landscape of of how Salesforce is and was currently used when you took the role with BHG just over two years ago from now. Just give us a sense of size, how many users, what products, and so on.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Well, when I walked in the door, BHG, like many other companies, had been growing you know extremely amount since 2020, right? You know, funds of cost of doing business was much cheaper at the time. So they were just continuing to grow, had a lot of new ideas and things they wanted to expand on. So they took those risks and they continued to build new businesses, new divisions, and so forth as well. Too, and of course, for me in the Salesforce realm, it means more applications that people are going to utilize, more items that we need to focus on. Um, and when I'd got here, part of that was kind of coming to a halt. It was like, whoa, now interest rates are increasing, so things need to change. So we had over a hundred and I want to say it was like 120 or so contractors and full-time people at that moment in time. And over the past few years, we haven't had that growth. We've had a downturn for us, which has been really tough for me to see these many people walk out the door. And I hadn't had to do layoffs like this since 2008, which was just atrocious back then, right? So at this time, you you people who have really put their blood and sweat into it have been asked to move on. Uh, and so you want to see them continue to succeed and you help them out over and over and over. But we have gone towards, instead of the in-house stuff, more of a managed services agreement where we have a fixed cost set for our development team, and we know what that's going to be, obviously, offshore, onshore, and so forth as well, too. And we we don't go above that, right? So that helps financially as an organization that makes money from lending, and when interest rates are high or margins get tighter and tougher, right? Um, so so we are hopeful as interest rates go down that we can't continue to go and grow more than that we have over the past few years. But that's that's where we were, at least when I walked in the door and kind of what we're at now. So I do have a set of senior leaders, and we help oversee our we'll say more of our managed services partners um and and get that work done too. We still have a few groups internally that are not a part of that that are growing, but for the most part, our Salesforce drivers are focused on managed services and that team.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Perfect. Okay, and then just in terms of how BHG use Salesforce, so unsecured lending, um, in the healthcare space, buying and selling loans, reducing risk, if any risk at all. Um, you know, I we we kind of get that, what the business do, but please expand on that. But but relating to Salesforce, like how are BHG using Salesforce, what does it enable them to do?

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Yeah, that's great. Um, BSG decided to utilize Salesforce as a lending operation, you know, lending origination system to their LOS, as many would call it. So they decided to say this system will be our ultimate system in determining how lending comes through, right? From an underending standpoint, from how we aggregate information from our third-party systems, such as credit lenders, Lexus Nexus, background checks, and so forth as well, OFAC checks in regards. So Salesforce is that to all be used system by everybody at the company in regards to lending and assuming. Um, so that has continued to expand and grow as I each of these groups from an underwriting standpoint, from a risk standpoint, from a security standpoint, and so forth. Well, they all work operatively inside Salesforce. So it's it's a really highly well-used system. Now, if it were me at the beginning, I probably wouldn't go back and start and say, let's just start from scratch. I would probably use an app is probably a question y'all would ask. Hey, what about Encino? What about some of the other type of items that are available to you? And to get that speed to market and to go through the headaches that those people who had already built that for, I'd probably delve in those items. But this was before I got here and they'd already gone down that path. And so right now it's working perfectly for them. Again, five billion dollars in lending with no problem this last year, and we're continuing to ramp up and continue to grow without any headaches or issues whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

That's great. So the business is using um Salesforce is its lending um basically in-house built lending origination system. You're also using marketing cloud, though, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:33

We do, yes, sir. Um our marketing group utilizes marketing cloud for a number of items, actually, from journey builders, uh, from just communications as well, for for our particular leads and potential individuals who we were looking to do business with. Also utilizes it from data and statistics at the same point as well, too. How how did this particular journey work for us? What could we do better? How can we improve and form? We do have a data analytics team that captures this information for them as well, too, as they run regression analysis and hypotheticals at the same time. So it's been a it's a it's how they've embraced not just Salesforce but also marketing cloud here is truly awesome uh to see and the success of that as well.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

That's great. So so you took over this org. Um, there was a lot of pre-built products, um, Salesforce uses um as you inherited the the business. How did that relate to different business units? Because I know we talked a lot in the brief around having to consolidate, I think, up to eight business units down to uh you know a handful. And you know, talk talk to us about the process of identifying what business units could be removed or reduced or condensed, and how do you decommission uh a business unit from Salesforce? Uh, a little bit about that project.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Sure. Um, great points because it's not something most people really face, right? Hey, you've had businesses inside your org. How do I get rid of said business now that that maybe that particular business unit is gone, but maybe divested shared over and so forth. So it's not always easy, especially when they were all in one org, because many of the places I worked in the past, they had multiple orcs, right? If you were like Honeywell and you had 110 at some point, because you had all these different business units, you're like, yes, no problem, I can cipher that one off, right? But here everybody worked in the same org. So with each of these business units, you certainly want to define what it is that made their business unique as a user. Uh, and we schema out everything, such as here, how does something come into this particular unit? Is it dependent on another unit? If not, great. We just work our way down this little trifecta sheet that we kind of have, uh, defines whether or not we can remove some of that information uh or whether or not it actually has to stay. So it becomes really difficult. So we have been in the process of removing four older business units that are out. One of them has been sold. Uh actually another one's been spun off. Uh, two others are kind of closed up. Uh, so each of them have a different process. But for those who have never had to do it, I say draw it all out. Get you like a good use lucid chart and say, here's what's unique to each of these businesses, and define what it is you're trying to get out of there and why, and how will that impact, right? What's your regression testing going to get? How will that impact our others? For us, we also have a system called GRECs. That's where we do our backups on, but it has a beautiful schema system. If you've never had a chance to toy with it, that schema will tell you all the child relationships that this particular item has throughout your entire antenna of Salesforce Realm. So you can say to yourself, if I want to go archive this particular item, how's it going to affect somewhere else? And it'll give me that preview as well, too, though. So that's a little trick that you can utilize. There are system tools that can help you divest that information from your system and how it could affect. Of course, there's testing through either maybe Capado, Excel Q, and many others as well, too. That that give you some of those benefits as well. But for us, it's sitting down, defining what's going to be important to pull out, what was that business using, and how is it going to affect, and so forth. And once you start to have that sculpture in place, then you can kind of carve out what's imperative and whether you can pull it all out or only parts of it. Does that help a little bit?

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Makes sense. Yeah, for sure. Um, can you give us an example? So I I get if you sell a business unit, obviously you would have to pull that out. Um, if you're shutting it down, like I guess you can just leave it there. I don't I don't know if that's really what's very true. Um so like what what's an example of when you would like like literally split it? You're keeping the business unit, but you want to move their processes somewhere else. And would that under Salesforce work, or was that like just something else?

SPEAKER_01 13:52

So for a business unit, let's just say that's being divestided. We had a collections company at one point that was also inside here, but now they're an independently owned unit, right? So we took out what was necessarily used by them and they opened up a new system, another Salesforce system outside externally from us, utilize those processes for them. We provided said data for historical purposes on their side. We keep an old copy for us just from compliance side, but we removed it from our system as well, too. One, just to make sure that there's no overlapping items, because technically they are split from us. We don't need to have others potentially, especially auditors, they don't like to see that. It's like, hey, that you no longer own this business. Why do you have this information still here if it's you know gone beyond from what auditing is necessary? So we do those items partly because to make those auditors happy, partly because we only have so much space in our org as well, too, right? Um, from a from a development standpoint, since we built everything from scratch, we utilize a ton of objects, um, metadata types inside of our system as well, too, almost to the max. So just removing some of these older ones help us define what we can do and add better as well, too. But uh, I don't know if that's mirror than as kind of what you're looking for. If you'd like me to explain a little bit more, so I think so.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

I mean, I'm gonna be honest, um you don't fully get it, and I'll tell you why, right? Because if you're in the lending business and you have a loan and you're collecting payments, then you sell that business. Don't you still need the history of the historical payments?

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Because obviously, not all businesses were about lending, though. Hence, what I just said, one of them was a collecting was not a lending. So hence here I have a defined business unit that's completely different, and that might be true. But I see what you mean. Hey, if you were all doing the same function and this was business unit consumer versus business unit commercial, I fully would get that in regards, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

But the history is still yours, is my point, right? Even collections, right? Let's say I don't know, one of your collection agents did something scrupulous, would that be under the new company or the old company, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Wouldn't you need that's under the new company? It's it's it's divestible. That's right. They didn't sell it. If they sold it and part of that negotiation was like, hey, we're only buying your assets, we're not buying the liabilities. That would be different, right? We keep all those things, right? If they buy the assets and everything else with it, too, then that goes with them. This situation was more of a collection agency. They didn't own these loans, but they're collecting based on loans that have gone default. So now we pay them just like any other third-party collection agency. Here's the lender or here's the person that you borrowed said money, here's their file, provide that to you separately. You don't live inside our word, they give it to you, we've separated those items out, and that's part of that reason why we don't have that inside. We still have it from an auditing standpoint, but we still remove it from our Salesforce org, we store it in the blob storage as well. And that would be why.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

In uh in what format? Azure Azure blob. So how do you how do you reference that data?

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Actually, with Grax, I can connect that data. It actually connects to that blob storage and references that data for us and tells me everything about it.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

What what?

SPEAKER_01 17:06

I'm sorry, did you use that? Grax GRACs system it does.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

I haven't heard of it. So it's just CSVs dumping there? It would be, yes. It works, it works. Um yeah, so so tell us about that, I guess, segmentation process. So okay, again, identifying the data that should be relatively straightforward, particularly if it's a collection, right? I'm assuming you have a collections object record type somewhere that ties to a customer, you know that no other customers relate, no, right? He wasn't a you know, you didn't take a separate loan to him. Let's say, um, you know you can cut that out. What about all the Salesforce code? How do you tackle that that's related to that business unit?

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yeah, that's a great question there too. Um, what we end up doing is we will deprecate things that we can, not all things can be just because they were in entwined necessarily, right? But we'll go through from our testing standpoint is what will happen if we remove this old code. How does it affect the current items as well? Certainly, what we do is we'll say, hey, is it a flow? Can we you know disable a flow that meets some of these needs? Is it all apex to a degree, etc.? For our particular instance, I'm sure very few meet the same need. We're 80% apex driven. That was built, right? It wasn't built on flows, it was just built straight from development style. So we have to do a lot of testing to make sure that those things can be removed. Otherwise, we just ignore it and move forward and say that's fine, it's just gonna have to be a part of our tech debt. And what we do is we historically put code around it saying, Hey, here's our story, this is why this is in here. We don't remove it because of the following. Here's your Jira ticket that it's assigned to, and you can read all to it right there. But that's that's typically what we do in those instances.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

So do you start at the let's say the object field level and say, okay, this is a collection. We do and then go back, find the code that hits that.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Exactly. Working backwards and that was same response right there. You're exactly right. Um, since collections are really an action, loan was the activity and the object or degree, collections more of an actions that occurs afterwards, right? The default failure to pay and so forth. So we will work from it from that regards. Uh, any of the ones that we had a default aspect to them and giving that out. So, what we've done as a corporation is you have to write that off on your book, basically saying, hey, yeah, sent this to collections. I hope I get something from it. Otherwise, it's just out there and it'll still sit inside Salesforce, but we just remove it out of the Salesforce org to make our auditors happy. Sits in blob and we reference it if necessary. Now, data analytics team still has aspect, aspect, you know, they can yank stuff necessarily for them, which is sicker for us, um, and let our business owners know hey, well, we have 1300 loans out here that are into fall that we give over to collections, etc. etc. etc. Uh, and they can see that aspect a little bit easier there.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

So like in terms of your user base, how do you get them to sign off? Like, I assume you have to regression test the whole system, not just right, not just the um the functionality that you ripped out. Um and maybe they're the data point somewhere someone's using. I I don't know how do you how do you get them to like regression test and that's great, great pressure.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah, we have to do it.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Particularly when the functionality is not changing, right? It's like that's right. Oh, please go test the whole system, I don't know, we're the same.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

So to those business units, they don't care that we're yanking out of as long as they can do what they need necessarily with one item or not, right? But it's important to us on the technology side to get things out, not have that tech that wasted inside there because you pay for stuff that you're not using as well, and so it's worse than any other. So we show them that importance, we get that approval. Our product team works great with them and says, Hey, this is what we're gonna remove, this is why we're gonna remove it. Here's who will still be able to access it if necessary afterwards, here's where they would go if they had a question about it. Here's where here's the benefits of us doing so as well. Too so they get that all up front laid out. We go to a committee, committee says, Yeah, that sounds great. Let's go ahead and continue to process this and move those items out. We approve it, and then we'll test it as we go within each print. Sprint one, sign off. Here's what we've done. If we've collected nothing and it's still planning or something, great. Sign off, move to the next level. Sprint two shows that actionable steps, sprint three, sprint four. Sometimes you have to just wait till the end of this whole project, per se, whether it's two or three sprints, uh, to really get true sign off and say, yep, that it's right, it's accurate. And we give them those testing scenarios. Here's where test one, here's our test two, test three, here's where we tested, here's how it was, here's our scripts, and then they go and just verify that it was done correct. So it is hard with a lot of different business units and getting the right person. And to believe and agree. So our processes are slow because of that, right? And that's okay. We'd rather do it the right way than anything else. But that's that's kind of what we have in place here.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

Uh, did you ever have to reverse something?

SPEAKER_01 22:15

No, fortunately not. Don't jinx me now either. Don't jinx me now. But we do have to go from time to time. We might have somebody that says, hey, state of California's doing an audit. They wanted to know what happened in 2018, certain item, and we just go pull that out out of the old storage item through the GRACs. Say, here's your records. We can import it back into Salesforce if necessary, if that whole system's still there, or we just give them the CSV aspects of what any questions they've asked.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

What um so so decommissioning the business units. Um what what were some of the challenges that you ran into um when carrying out this activity? There must I'm sure it wasn't a simple process, so I know there's gonna be plenty of challenges. So maybe the top three and and just what what why they were in that order, perhaps.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Yeah, yeah. Top three. First one is really how is it how what we're about to do? Is it really going to benefit us as a company, right? And that just takes time of going in and analyzing each of these items to a degree because they weren't they weren't built with a methodology behind them, they was built like a business need. And they were all built before most of us got here. Um, so it's really just defining if we strip this out, who are we affecting now? Is any of this tied to any of the code inside here, right? If you have elements cloud, you could probably see those types of things. We don't have that, so it's the old-fashioned way for us in many ways. Uh, and just doing what we do is with the Excel queue, which is a great testing tool for those of you who haven't utilized it. Also, Capado has a great testing tool uh inside of it as well, too, that helps us at the same point. So we use those heavily, and we take photos and videos of our success as well. But but that's the first part. Number one is who's it gonna affect and how's it gonna affect our current lending processes, right? Number two is you know, are we really gonna benefit or we're gonna waste money just because we don't want to have this debt inside here? And if not, what's our ROI? You know, what's our cost-benefit analysis? But some of that is just scratch paper. We we won't know everything to the very end, but some of it is just the aspect of us laying it down, like here's how we will reduce the following, and this is what this does for us, and here's how this benefits. Um, and then number three, just is it is it going to make our current users' life easier in some form or fashion? Um, and and those are our top three things, and they're hard to define. They really are hard. Sometimes they're hard, really hard to define. Sometimes you don't even know if you can test to get the success from it, but that's what you're hoping for. Life isn't all cut and dry. So it's about achieving some of those goals by by doing the things necessary to get you what you know is best for you as well.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

So so with um the first challenge, um, and and and addressing that challenge. So, who will it affect? How will it affect um the current lending process? Obviously, you conducted a I'd assume an expensive requirement gathering exercise. Curious, did you use internal talent? You had internal FDEs for that? Did you bring in a consulting firm?

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Nope. It was all internal, everything was internal aspect. We have our greatly, we we still have a really great product team who has a lot of knowledge about what's going on, how does it affect, who to go reach out to, who to speak with. And with that knowledge has been success for us. Because without them, like you say, Kiro, it would be a complete mess. And it would be hard even harder for an outside consulting firm to come in and try to guess that, much less. So we we were very fortunate in this instance. Because for those who don't have that, I'm sure it's an uphill battle from from gondola of a type, just craziness.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

Do you think there could be an advantage though, having a uh fresh perspective? Um, obviously, I'm I'm sure there are many different ways of just play devil's advocate. I'm sure there are many different ways of decommissioning a business units, and each sector industry will do it differently. Pros and cons, or you think for you guys it was just knowing that knowing how the business used the low note origination system, that was like paramount more than more important than that.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

It was paramount. It really was more important than anything. Is how I'm not gonna screw up what we do now and for our users now, or for those who are looking seeking a loan now, those types of things. But you're right. I mean, I'm sure somebody can give us a lot of great other perspective that could have been done and taken in order to do so. It's just for this particular instance, it would be very hard because without having those knowledgeable people to say, yes, this is no longer utilized, this one is not important, etc., it would be really difficult for any third-party person to just yes and start to try to test and makes that time frame even longer and spend more money on that as well. Yeah, again, just for our instance.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

And I guess as well, you know, uh in addition to yourself with a variety of industry experience, I'm sure there are people in internally that have also been business analysis uh or BAs on other projects, other industries, other sizes of companies, and so on. So still getting some of that fresh uh input, I'm I'm sure, in in different areas. Yep, by far. You're right about that. That you nailed it. Why why do you think it took um so long for the business to undergo this exercise? Do you do you think it was like is it just the project bandwidth perspective, or did anything happen that kind of accelerated the timeline to undertake this activity, this project?

SPEAKER_01 27:37

No, it was like like you mentioned the earlier part of it to a degree of just one, we all have full-time jobs, so you only have so much time to allocate to saying, Yeah, I can go help you all. And none of it ever aligns, right? It's it's like trying to get the stars up. Oh, okay, you you have this important meeting for you. This one has this important meeting over here, so maybe every third day we can work on those types of items, right? And that's just really getting those things lined up. They're important projects, but are they more important than others? No, right? What drives us is what's going to bring revenue to the bottom line. Hence, they will always have more favorability than anything else. And even though we need to do things that make auditors happy, or we need to do things that make other business units happy to make them more successful, at the end of the day, it's how do we continue to drive business for ourselves uh and and make money because it's a business, it feeds all these families, it feeds all these people, and we lend money to people who need it as well too, do the same thing. So it's it's that aspect.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Makes sense. Now now you mentioned the third challenge was understanding where and how it will benefit users, right? Um, you know, the goal of the project was to have that takeaway. So reflecting back, I'm sure you can tell us. I know it's probably still early days to an extent, but um, some of these ROI benefits will be for years to come. But initial kind of successes from this this project relating to users specifically, what were some of the benefits that you saw across the business?

SPEAKER_01 29:09

You know, really this is just maybe enough if you made our security team heavy because it clears out audits for them and makes them extremely less concerned, right? So for those users, they're like, hey, this is fantastic, right? When the FDIC walks in, even though we're not really regulated, but we are 49% owned by another bank, hence, so they get to walk in and they get to dictate things that we have to follow and do, hence, it makes that group really happy, and therefore that business unit is extremely happy. How does it affect underwriters? Yeah, I don't think it really necessarily benefited them, but for other constituents here in the org, it certainly improved their variabilities and the things that they needed to check the list off of and how it was affecting them. But that is hard. So, but that is a smaller group. Our underwriters and our loan officers and so forth are a much bigger group, security teams, compliance teams are a much smaller group, but they're still very important nonetheless.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Okay. What on a scale of one to ten, ten being fantastic success, one being a disaster, what what what would you rate the project overall? Um, and what do you think your users would rate it?

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Well, again, if you ask the security group, they're gonna say high marks, right? For everybody else who had to be involved and didn't really see a benefit of it, like, I don't know, just another waste of time, time everything, right? That's probably what they would say. For me, I'd say it was a very high mark because it was a great thing that we were able to remove this particular items, satisfy our one of our business units, and make them extremely happy. So I would give it a certainly a nine out of ten, at least in my mind. But again, it depends on who you asked. Each of those people are gonna have a different perspective.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

And I guess upon reflection, is there anything you would do differently in terms of if you had to run this project again? What would that one difference be knowing what you know now?

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Yeah, and just really the timing of it, right? Is is I would ask, is this imperative that we do this this year? So is it more imperative next year? Those types of things. Just give it a better qualifications of of is it really if it is that important, which I'm sure it is, is it more important to do this now and focus these resources that are more fixed from the manager's side here or on other things that are gonna help us grow? That would probably be the only thing I'd ask more. Either way, it did have to be done, whether it's done 20, 26, 2025, so forth. It's just which one have been more important to us. That's all. That's the only thing I would have questioned.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

Yeah, I would think shutting down a business unit, you have a little bit more flexibility than like if you sold it.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

You probably have that input. That's right. Which we did one, you're right. We did have to get it out exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:48

Right, legal will be all over you. Um then the the other thing, like this that like it really has a lot of parallels to clearing cleaning up tech debt, and because that's almost really what it is, right? You're having unused code sitting in there, and that's basically all it is. Um, we talked a little bit about the benefit to your users. What about your developers? Did they did they feel any kind of lift of like wonderful? I don't have to worry about this stuff for now making new features.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

That's a great point. You're right, because nobody really worries about the developers most of the time and anything, but it's the the happiness to see that they would not be having to deal with this legacy code when they're doing testing or when they're writing things as well, too, or when they're trying to do their work. To see them be happy was amazing. Oh god, I think this is gonna help us out tremendously because of X, Y, and Z and A, B, and C. Like, oh, I never really thought about that, and I'm sure our business humans didn't either. But that was a it brought so much joy to them to see these legacy items yanked out, and it gave them more almost like a cleaner space of what they can do stuff with. Um, so you're right. That was something that I don't think anybody ever really appreciated but them. They really did. So you brought that up, Mass. I think it's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

Yeah, it's it's actually one of my pet peeves. Um, sometimes developers are like so terrified of deleting something. Sure. So they they you know, they'll uh I don't know, add a switch or comment it out, or and or they just have like an old version or they rename it to old, and then they'll have you know, um have four versions, like an old, older, older.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

That's right. And then they'll have current as of date following, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_03 33:23

Right? Right. New new right new two. Um, yeah, that kind of stuff makes me crazy. I'm like, you just just rip it out. Um, if you want to back it up somewhere, back it up somewhere, particularly when you have you know proper um proper development uh organizations. So um what about marketing cloud service? That stuff too. You ripped out like old case data, I mean email sends, like all your marketing.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Not so much, yeah. You know, some of those we did have to, some of those we, you know, especially if if if the prior to the organization that we bought, they wanted that data, we did take it out of us per that contract, right? That's no longer part of our aspect. Um, but others we did have to leave behind just because of how our marketing team utilizes it from the collections and so forth as well. Too, hey, we don't want to continue to send the items of these people. Please make sure we sign our system that this person did default. Uh we're not trying to do business with them moving forward, don't waste any journeys on them, etc. etc. etc. So that part was not ciphered out. You're right about that, and so it did stay in there for those particular purposes as well.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

Okay, cool. But you can modify the uh you can the target, right? The target list via marketing campaigns to filter.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Very true.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

Yeah, um, and then what about like system integrations? You have to like do that in parallel. So if you're removing a person right from your CRM, uh the integration can theory right back unless clean one, you want to clean the other, right? You have to want to, no choice. Um, yeah, so you did those also in tandem and coordinate with the other.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

We did in tandem. No, we did, yes, very much so. Which also takes a little bit longer as well, too, because it is a different group utilizing a different system with a different database as well. Also, plus again, like I told you, we do have a third-party data team, analytics team that utilizes data at the same time. They're actually the ones who feed us most of our leads as well, too. So they force those leads into us. So we want to make sure we don't affect their systems downstream as well. And if we sold that loan, that's another system that you gotta make sure that you go planning with. Hey, this particular item was sold, this particular one was default. Please note, like record over here, we got to make sure that it's gonna affect y'all as well, too. And so it does take a lot of cross-functional work.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

So just um before we move to the um kind of second topic area, uh, one of the things we talked about next uh uh to an extent um at length was around the success the business have had around mailers. So could could you set set the scene a little bit for us there? Because all right, it's not rocket science, but it is interesting. Um and there's a lot of thoughts we we all have on that topic. So do you want over to you, Chris?

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Sure. So as as y'all were for everybody else, paint that picture, myself, careful, yeah. As we were all talking about how how does this company really kind of drive revenue to them? And I said, Well, they do a lot of mailers, and these gentlemen were like, What? Mailers? What you mean, like really physically mail out stuff to people? Who does that anymore, right? And I thought the same thing when I walked in the door and they were like, Oh no, we get most of our stuff from mailers. My brain was like, There's no possible way, that's just this defies all logic. But it's actually true. This particular company, it does do electronic um marketing, it does do a lot of things electronically, but it also does things from a physical mailing standpoint, and they work really hard to make these mailers very unique and tailored to an individual specific person that they're reaching out to. So it's not like those standard ones that you might get in the mail that look like any other white plain envelope. They're very tailored, almost invitation, like hey, you're invited to the following party to a degree. You open it up, has these maybe confetti or something, and it pops out up a two-degree. They spend a lot making these designs work for them, and it is still extremely successful for them. I don't know the reasoning behind it all, I just know that it works, and so they continue to invest money in these mailers and they continue to see a return that comes from such man, then it's a higher return than it is electronically. So maybe this is a niche now. Maybe what was once taboo is now a niche where people are like, hey, this is unique. I'm getting something different, and so hence I'm gonna open it up. And you, I might like to do business with this company to a degree. I just like you all been dumbfounded by it, but it is true, they are very successful at mailers.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

Um, personally, I'm not super surprised to be to be completely honest. I know um local businesses do very well with them. Restaurants, hang, you know, those hanging menus things. Sure, they do really well, gyms do really well. Um, I still get stuff on my windshield. People would not be doing that stuff, and that's much more labor-intensive than a male.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

It is, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

Yep, far. Yeah, so those stuff tend tend to do well. I I think it's just more of your industry. That's a little bit fairly because you're really targeting professionals, right? Doctors, PAs. Um, so I I would think maybe it's because it's super targeted, right? You're not blessed.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

It is very too super targeted, you're right. Yeah, they they typically know who it is they're sending them to and what what what their background is and so forth. So there is a little bit more science to it versus just mail everybody something, spend this much out, right? So but it's just very successful to see these results.

SPEAKER_03 38:57

One of the things that I also think is heavily underutilized, but I don't have any even anecdotal evidence on this one. Used to be huge. Um, print ads. You guys try those?

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yes, yes, yeah, very much so. Yeah, right. We will still do a little bit of print ad as well, too. Not as much as they do for the individual mailers that we might have, but they still do focus on some print ads, a couple publications that they will focus on, and then where they can get them. Obviously, think about journal of health, but just items that are going to be professionally driven towards maybe a PA or a nurse practitioner or a dentist or something, right? And do so uh for a quarter or whatnot. Um they still they still see success in a number of those things as well, too, though. But again, still that individual tailored message that they're mailing out to them has been the most successful for them.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

Okay, great. So bringing it back to tech. How do you do print edits and mailers with marketing cloud?

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Well, we have to use a third-party service to to make it all work, actually. And and they won't be disclosed with the third party, but it is it is yeah, it is tied in somehow. I just can't necessarily go into too much delving of of how they do their aspects there, but it is a third-party group, gives us the information and we share that information with them as well to um send that information back and forth. But they particularly says this is a particular item that we are sending to this particular person. We see a copy of it, we know exactly what it's gonna look like, what that message says, who it goes to. Oh, I know what they're doing. I got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

You're using like a like a fulfillment house, basically.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

I will I will not confirm nor deny, but I will I will just say, I will just say that that we we do things stuff like you might be thinking.

SPEAKER_03 40:35

So talking about completely unrelated industries, lots of people like to send out swag. Um in the financial service industry, it's not common to send out flyers about my funds to let's say a fund manager. Hey, why don't you pitch right? It's very so they so they have mailer packets, let's say. Um, or I'm sending out swag. Salesforce does that, everybody knows, right? I'm gonna send us what you're gonna see the most. Um, right, they basically produce a file, send it to a fulfillment house, and they often print on demand, mail it out, and let you know. Um, okay, but taking that back, you're putting phone numbers on the mailers or website, or how how do you track? Or is that okay to talk about tracking the response?

SPEAKER_01 41:17

And and you were cutting out on me for a second there, but I believe you say we're putting phone numbers and so forth.

SPEAKER_03 41:21

We have to question phone numbers, email, or website, and how do you track um the response?

SPEAKER_01 41:27

We give them a direct URL, right, for them to come and log in. So we it's it's a personalized URL that those people have, and we say, you know, if you're interested, here's your unique URL. Please visit this address, we'll verify who they are as well afterwards, because it could be, you know, they could have moved in between those times, we'll make sure that this is the right person and so forth. Yes. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

Um Kiro, you wanted to talk about uh yeah, we want to talk a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Yeah, we want to talk a little bit about um your Capado project. So uh again, kind of you know what you were using prior to Capado, uh, what was your experience? Why did you need to uh seek a replacement? What did that process look like? Um that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

That's uh that's a great question. And and when I got here, the organization was utilizing Autorabbit, which is another system that that companies do use and many do successfully as well. Uh for us, it we felt Capado was much better for us because we had multiple business units using one Salesforce org, so we could see how the branch changes would be made. And Autorabbit wouldn't have given us that ability to do so. So if something got deployed, even though we tested it, it could have still yanked in old code, and that would happen quite a bit on the Autorabbit aspect for us. But with Capado, we have we'll just say our walls in place, but also we see what branches really need to go and can verify. So we have had no issues in the last year since implementing this system and having our releases be successful each moment in time where we hadn't had to roll something back, or we had another issue to a degree. And it worked out for us again because we see everybody, all these business units building at the same time, we're deploying for them, and they're all using a lot of the same common objects, right? Uh, and that's how. So it was it's just more successful, of course. Plus, Capato also has some great little testing features internally, if you haven't had a chance. You know, some of them are they'll call them AI-driven items that you can utilize as well, too. And they do help you internally uh test ahead of time as well. And that gives our developers something that they didn't have from an auto-revus standpoint, which is really unique and helpful. So we've been much more successful in that regard for the last year from our implementation.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Got it. Were were um were there any other vendors that you were kind of reviewing, like Gearset or Flosum or did Flossom as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

I'm a Flossum fan, I love Flosum a lot, right? And so to take out bias, so I allowed a number of engineers. On our team to say, okay, let's put down all the ones that we could use in this instance. And what are the things that we need to meet our needs? Can each of these meet those needs? And it really came down to Capato and Flosum. And then Capado just had a few other items that was beneficial to our particular item versus anything else. And that's why Capato went out in that regard. But I'm a Flossom guy. I love Flossum. I think I even have a Cert or two and Flosum as well, too, though. And it's they have a really great, great product as well, too. And nothing, and I don't take away from anybody else's as well as you know. Autorabbit's going to meet other people's needs, you know, gear set, etc. etc. etc. Just for our particular items, Capado met all of our needs, and that's what was best for us. Good.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

How how did um from a cost perspective, how did they differ between Autorabit and Capado as one? Significantly more? Were they on the on the same same kind of lines?

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Same lines. It was the same cat. Obviously, Capado wants to win that business, so they're gonna try to do the best they can to get you away from Autora Rabbit, and hence it was the same price in that regard. Yeah, it was the same price in that regard. But we also saw if we were going to pay for the same items, we get all these more benefits from Capado, too. And so we appreciated that as well at the same time. Um, one thing that we did have at Autorabbit that you didn't have with Capado was uh a backup and restore system. So when I talked about Gracks, as that's what we have for our backup restore, a lot of people go with own backup or or Otovessa or some others to a degree, but we utilize Gracks, and it's a great tool, really, really great tool, uh, has been for for many years though. So we swapped out the Autorabbit backup restore and Gracks separately and then Capado as well, too. But they they work hand in hand quite easily.

SPEAKER_03 45:44

So uh for listeners not very familiar with Capado, obviously Salesforce is um requires test scripts, right? Automated testing. So what yeah, what is what's required? You have to have, I think, like 75-80% test coverage.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

75%. I'm assuming you're doing this class, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. There's always work around it, but you're right. Yeah, 75% test coverage is typically what they say here.

SPEAKER_03 46:07

Yeah, minimal. So what does Kapada do that right? That's obviously above and beyond that you want third-party school for us.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

It was just being able to see how each developers and developer group were gonna affect each other if something was to happen. If it was a class change, if we were gonna change something here, who is it gonna affect? And we didn't want old code yanked in, which consistently happened a lot with our predecessor system, right? So it gives these developers each one, hey, and the testing. Here's what I'm gonna change. What's gonna happen if I do the following? How's it going to operate amongst our sandboxes as well, too? Right. So here I can test this environment, move up to code merge, after that, success, move it up to you know QAUAT levels before deployment, and it gives them those step-by-step instances of how it's gonna affect and what's gonna happen. And they can record those in the items as well, too. So we see the code that they built and developed, we see their successful testing, and we see them being able to move that along the chain with no problems, and that helps us out. We didn't get that with our predecessor, right? So now we know we can save a lot of time moving up faster through our deployments and our works uh versus with the time that it took and the prep time that it took. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 47:23

So it probably really helped with your um segmenting out the old exactly, exactly, it did by far.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

So those are huge benefits to us, and again, not everybody faces that because we're very unique in our assets. So but for us, it definitely helps us tremendously.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

So we covered a lot of current and previous projects um that you can easily overseeing and directing. Um, what what's next for you and BHG? Any anything um on the horizon uh in terms of AI and agent force or um in terms of just kind of other transformational projects that are being powered through Salesforce? That's a great question here.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Um for us, we do want to utilize some of the uh call them AI availability that you might provide from Salesforce, right? So we are going to test some items for us as an organization. Where we could probably do best is from our customer service standpoint. Like you mentioned, hey, how can I utilize this system to help meet a lot of the questions that we get from our server side about people's loans and so forth, and being able to kind of almost automate that where a system can say, hey, customer X, Y, Z, blah, blah, blah, you verify who you are. Here's what your outstanding balance is, here's when your next two balance or payment is due, and so forth as well. Or do you have a question? Do you want more current rates? Do you want more something else to a degree? Just being able to provide that where we take some of that pressure off of our customer service team who's haven't answered those individually. So we're still growing in that uniqueness as well, too, though. At the same time, be able to offer rates, you know, be able to offer instant kind of packages. Okay, well, here you are. Just based on your history, we have, we might be able to offer you this particular loan at this particular rate for this particular time frame. If that doesn't meet your need, let's go ahead and delve deeper to a degree, just kind of have an instant offer. Maybe that's what some of them are there for and save some of that time. But I think those are things that we'll start to delve into here in 2025. We still need to define it, but but really for us, helping our customer more importantly, I think would would be the best, most significant aspect uh by utilizing AI. And so we're gonna try to invest in that a little bit more.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

Um, any thoughts on using AI for like either the loan approval or the loan approval amount type stuff?

SPEAKER_01 49:51

Yeah, we have some of that already embedded into our automation to a degree, right? Um the thing is, though, we talked about those auditors before, right? They don't like automated underwriting, they don't at all. And it it's one of the first things they say. If you we want to know if this is what you have, we want to know every bit about it and how, right? Because if if you're going to do it, we want to make sure it wanted meets the rules. Are you discriminating against certain people and classes and so forth, right? Are you reading sentiment? Is that sentiment the following, right? So it it they haven't really wanted corporations to embrace that so much, at least in our instance scenario at Delve. So we ourselves haven't really embraced it 100% either because of that. Doesn't mean it won't change, whole new year, whole new rules, and so forth. But at the moment, their love for that is minute, and hence we still do things kind of the old-fashioned way. I don't think this company's looking to be the first person out there either that says, hey, let's just do it all AI and just put all that risk and that trust into something like that either, though. But you're right, Maz, I mean, there's the ability to do some things where you can automatically underwrite based on the given proponents that's necessary to respond to them though.

SPEAKER_03 51:09

Yeah, one of the reasons I asked, honestly, is because I know it's a hot button issue in the industry. Um how you guys are handling it, and it seems that you're basically handling it by uh avoidance or you wait for someone else to be the guinea pig, which is yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, huh?

SPEAKER_01 51:24

There's nothing.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

No, there is nothing wrong with that, right? Um yeah, particularly in an industry that how do I say the government likes to find that's true, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

So so as long as we are doing what's best for our customers and doing stress for organization and following the rules necessary, then we'll probably still continue to play in that playground. And I'm sure there'll be a disruptor at some place sometime who has more backing, maybe take more risk and give that a shot, but it probably won't be us.

SPEAKER_02 51:54

I think uh sometimes it's better to wait uh as well, right? I think projects uh products sorry um vary so so often, and and like Maz said, let others be the guinea pig. So um, but but you know, I think Agent Force is gathering momentum for depending on who you speak to. They reckon uh around a thousand customers are uh utilizing Agent Force in some capacity or about to. Um so uh watch this space. I think I think there'll be updates before the end of the year for sure. Um we're already seeing successful case studies of of companies coming out and saying it's already impacted XYZ. So um and anything else, Chris, other than kind of AI, if we step away from AI and Agent Force, any other general projects uh for your Salesforce team this year?

SPEAKER_01 52:45

Really just working with with third-party partners, how they refer business to us, like a Credit Karma, which is a big partner for us and many others as well, too. Though how do we work with them? How do we get things back to them as well, to our other third-party partners in other parts? Those are probably our biggest connectors, uh, and making sure that we can help provide because you know we're looking for a certain type of customer, and the people that come to us don't always meet that need, but it doesn't mean that they don't have a need, right? So we want to make sure that we don't just deny them because they don't meet hire what we're looking for. We want to make sure that we can get them to the right space as well, too, though. So just making sure that we have a better customer experience from an end standpoint, not just the customers we're wanting to do business with, but just from everybody totality, probably working with them uh and those other corporations more so segment things a little bit better and how we can get that referral over to them um for success for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 53:35

Yeah. Would that would it be fair to say there might not be a customer today, but there could be a couple of years down the line, and you know, that touch point if it's positive or negative can impact their decision on whether to reopen that conversation.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

Yes, very true. And you remember, when we started, you know, as Mass said, we're we're focused on healthcare professionals. That's still our niche, right? And so just because you're not a healthcare professional doesn't mean you wouldn't get a loan, but we're gonna be a lot less guarded or we're a lot more guarded about people who are not, you know, from in that that that kind of industry versus something else that we're familiar with, right? So if you came to us and said, Oh, well, I'm a hedge fund manager or something, and I want to borrow this from blah blah blah, we're like, that's not really our bailiwick, right? So we don't know much of a lot about it. Underwriting that's a little bit trickier for us than it is for somebody who says, Well, I want a dental practice, and this is how much we do, and it's how we do those aspects. So we just want to make sure that we get people that right opportunity and experience, and and that's why we want to make sure that everybody is successful in their cards.

SPEAKER_02 54:35

Could you and would you look to monetize that kind of partner referral type of scenario, or too too soon to tell, or it'd be hard to know.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

I mean, I'm sure you could, right? Uh you know, our owners are extremely bright, and so if that's something that they could do, they're they're going to, because there's a cost to still doing that, right? There's still money involved for me to get that referral out to them. So maybe having that referral aspect say whether you know whether it's five cents per lead back to you or $50 type of thing. I'm I'm sure they'll look into that, but that hadn't been the discussion yet. It's more about how do we really make sure people have a good experience.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

Got it. Good stuff. Um, any parting thoughts before we uh thank you for your time? Anything else that you you you think's worth sharing with our listeners?

SPEAKER_01 55:23

You know, just for for those who are in the industry, it's a scary time, right? Because everybody hears about AI taking over and such. I promise you, it will not overtake everything that anybody's doing all the time. It just won't. There's no possible way. So don't feel like it's it's not something to get into. Salesforce is still a great and unique system, and it's always going to need people, always need bodies, always needs decision makers. So stick with it. I promise you, it'll pay off in the long run.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

Any any particular skill set you would advise listeners to um, because obviously that is a concern that a lot of people have. Um, teams will reduce and more businesses will will hire niche or offshore uh to reduce their US presence. But you're right, you know, for good people, good talent, they'll still be in demand. Um, and my side, I can vouch for that as well. But if you were, let's say, an admin with a couple of years' experience, um, where would you be, what type of skill set would you be pushing upon?

SPEAKER_01 56:19

I would say that the greatest need is security. And it's not from the Salesforce side of security, it's from a corporation's understanding of how security works within a Salesforce realm. All these companies and all these industries that I've worked through, no security group at those companies understood Salesforce, and they had nobody to rely on except us, and they still miss the gamut all the time. So if you have just a small amount of modicum up knowledge of Salesforce and you embrace a little bit of security side, you can speak those two languages. I guarantee you you'll fit those gaps so well because there's huge amounts of security needs and lots of missing knowledge about there. So if I was you, I would just consider that. And it's not hard to learn cybersecurity, it's not the language is easy and great, it really is. Um, just embrace those two items because security is always going to be needed, auditors are always gonna want it, they're always gonna want to speak to it no matter what. The regulators are always gonna be there asking those questions to fill those gaps. I promise you that and data, data is always always there as well, too, though, no matter what. Data is always a need. You can't have good AI without good clean data, and most companies are crap job about clean data, they just do an awful job. No company I've ever worked for has a great job of data, they just don't because it's something that gets sacrificed and they don't think about it until they really need it. And now with AI, you need it. If you're gonna rely on decisions to be made, you better have the most up-to-date information you possibly can, and it best be most accurate because without it, you've got garbage. That's all you'll get. So that those two things are probably what I focus on.

SPEAKER_02 57:56

Yeah, I think I think uh security is a very interesting one. Um but not a massive area for for me. Uh and my my uh you know, it just just kind of demand from customers, right? Um but but I think you you're right, it's it's important. Um and then outside of that, I think that you're absolutely spot on with data, and I've I've I've definitely heard that maybe five, six times a week since since the start of the year. So um I I think we're we're all in alliance with you know with you on that one. So um, all right, Chris. Well, well, look, thank you um for your time. It was it was great to hear a bit more about kind of lending and health um, you know, kind of combined and the projects that you've overseen so far in a couple of years there. So we really appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

No, I really appreciate y'all as well, too. I wish you all a wonderful 2025 and thank you for everything.

SPEAKER_02 58:52

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 58:52

Appreciate you, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 58:54

Um, and and for our listeners, uh, you know what to do. Please hit follow and subscribe to the CRM Success Show for more episodes with fascinating leaders like Chris who are willing to give their insights and experience uh for the greater good. So uh thanks again, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

Thank you all.